Madonna - inspirational oldie or old trout? :p

Well... you'll never guess what but I've been pondering again. This time it was seeing Madonna's Confessions tour on t'telly the other night (I know, I did have better things to do... but I was transfixed).

My personal experience with Madge(!) is that I've never been a huge fan but always had a healthy fascination with her. I think she's pretty amazing the way she's constantly reinvented herself. Although the last time I really 'liked' her was back in the Immaculate Collection days - it all seems a lot more innocent back then, even though she was doing unmentionables with the crucifixes! image

However, seeing the tour on tv it just struck me as a little... odd. Really overblown and look-at-me. I'm not a practising Christian (I'm a practising atheist!) but I found the Madonna-on-a-cross (complete with crown of thorns and jewelled 'blood' - urgh!) really a bit distasteful. (I wonder what Muslims would have said if she'd dressed up as Mohammed?!) And I hate to say it but when she was dancing around in her leotard I just thought, 'put it away, love!'.

Am I ageist? Sexist? Is there a time when women of a certain age should just settle down and make jam? Look after their husbands?! (Rumour has it that Guy's dumped her but they still seem to be going strong... and I wonder how much of that rumour is sexist, that a woman shouldn't be more successful than her husband?) Do you think that Madonna is inspirational, or is she past it?


  • Lilith1980Lilith1980 Posts: 1,227
    I have to admit I've never really liked Madge and I do find it a bit weird that she's kind of still trying to be this "young" and "hip" artist when she's not so young anymore.

    I think she looks good for her age, although I suspect there's been some surgery going on there, and I'm not keen on her muscles. But I prefer people who grow old gracefully rather than trying to ward off the wrinkles.

    I think she has had a great career, but I dont really know why! But that's because I'm not a fan.

    I am well and truly wedged on the fence here!


    [Modified by: Lilith1980 on August 20, 2008 12:51 PM]

  • mrshelen74mrshelen74 Posts: 9,282
    i just love madonna, hope i look that good (without surgery) when im 50, god where does she get her engery from.
  • CeleryukCeleryuk Posts: 3,640

    However one thing who has always puzzled me if despite having a great body for her age, a career, millions of pounds, is how unhappy she looks. Her face is always quite closed, a bit rigid, not really relax.

    I would rather look like Meryl Streep, who is always smiling, laughing, quite relax and who just so happy in her skin.

    And yes there is something a bit sad about a 50 yrs old woman who needs to show off her ar*se to make people buy her music.

  • SkipulaSkipula Posts: 1,763
    Yes, Naocat, you're being both ageist and sexist image

    As someone who will be the same age as her in under 3 months I don't think we should consign ourselves to homely pursuits - but then again I wouldn't have my bum hanging out a leotard for the world to gape at image

    I do think the world has moved on and people my age don't think of themselves as old (until the joints ache). We've grown older but we still like new things and why shouldn't we enjoy them like you youngsters? ;\)

    And if ageing male stars can put their paunches on tour why can't women?

    I do agree with you about the lack of taste in the crucifix, etc.
  • NaomeiNaomei Posts: 2,273
    Yes, I agree Celery - she does always look kind of unhappy. But I think her face is quite drawn and haggard looking a lot of the time.

    Skip - I don't think older ladies should have to sit around at home... I'm just not sure that it doesn't look a bit 'try hard' the fact that she's always trying to be 'down with the kids'. I think the same about myself if I'm pretending to be younger than I am! I feel old even going to clubs and I'm 20 years younger than she is! But each to their own!

    I do find the leotard a bit grim but I think I would no matter what age she was! It's just 'too much information' for me! image
  • CeleryukCeleryuk Posts: 3,640

    I do think the world has moved on and people my age don't think of themselves as old (until the joints ache). We've grown older but we still like new things and why shouldn't we enjoy them like you youngsters? ;\)

    Skip, that really puzzled me because I always thought each age always brought something completely different but equally interesting and exciting. Why when you're 50 would you want to look like a 20 yrs old post acnea? Could we not enjoy new things but as grown up?

  • SkipulaSkipula Posts: 1,763
    I agree there's a big difference between normal 50 year-olds just enjoying themselves and those thinking they are cool and hip. If I go to see a band, I just go to see and enjoy the band, I don't pose and imagine I could get off with the lead singer image (but h2b is in a band and takes the lead vocals sometimes so maybe I do!)

  • CeleryukCeleryuk Posts: 3,640
    that's it! Brilliant! At 20 we are dreaming about dating a singer and at 50 we's what I thought, life keeps getting better and better! Skip thanks those reassuring thoughts. image
  • nikolinauknikolinauk Posts: 687
    Madonna has been a mild irritant (for me) for years - I can't put my finger on why exactly and I've had this ageist debate regarding her a few times but I've never been able to articulate the affect of sheer annoyance the woman has on me.

    I guess it may be the constant 're-invention' it just smacks falseness and is an untruth - but then I guess lots of artists/musicians and the like have to keep re-inventing themselves and I generaly don't have issues with that.

    Maybe I just can't relate to her at all whereas some 'celebs' you do feel that they're a 'nice' person or at least talented.

    I don't think on a personal level it's an age/sex issue as I also have a list of male actors I can't abide and will avoid their films at all costs!
  • SkipulaSkipula Posts: 1,763
    Personally I wish she would give up! I think I was just being a bit paranoid about the age thing so had to stand up for us 1958 babies image
  • ka5eka5e Posts: 291
    I think she actually looks older than she is in a way... her arms look really odd with bulging muscles and veins, also her face is looking rather haggard lately. I think she just pushes her body too far and it's starting to show. Sharon Stone is older and, IMO, looks far better.

    I'm a Christian and found the whole cross etc to be quite offensive, but more because she was courting controversy with the intention to offend, yet (IMO) wouldn't have applied it to a different faith as there would most likely have been consequences, such as death threats.
  • lorrdainelorrdaine Posts: 1,316
    i really like madonna but there is no denying (although some will) that she totally believes her own hype.

    thats a real turn off for me.

    keep it real all you crazy celebs lol

  • tsarinauktsarinauk Posts: 863
    I once went to a party where there was Madonna impersonator performing but it was just after Madonna launched her new leotard look and this woman just did NOT look comfortable wearing it at all. I bet her heart must sink every time Madonna launches a raunchy new lookk and she has to copy it. Madge, spare a thought for Madonna impersonators!!!
  • clarksukclarksuk Posts: 1,635
    I've always been a big Madonna fan, but I agree with you Naocat, I also seen this on TV and found it quite strange and I did wonder what the point was with her lying on the cruxifix? She done that years ago, its nothing new! But distasteful all the same.

    I am intrigued by her though, I like the way she reinvents herself, that she looks well for her age, she is in her 50's afterall. But I cant help but feel she is always trying too hard and yes she does look unhappy, a bit like Victoria Beckham in that regard.

    Now and again she has good music but most of the time, it just seems too young for her.

    Is she really going to be trying like this when she is 60? Now that will be funny to see. Madonna in a bomber jacket, dancing up walls with Justin trousersnake. :\)
  • NaomeiNaomei Posts: 2,273
    Madonna has been a mild irritant (for me) for years - I can't put my finger on why exactly and I've had this ageist debate regarding her a few times but I've never been able to articulate the affect of sheer annoyance the woman has on me.

    See Anilokin, I think that's a bit how I feel... You want to think 'good on her' for ageing disgracefully, but actually she's a bit annoying.

    I found the cross thing annoying more for the 'oo, look, I'm all controversial' thing than the Christian thing - but also I think the idea that she thinks it's okay to offend certain religions (whilst not dreaming of offending others, for example) is kind of annoying. Like a 16 year old wearing a t shirt with satanic symbols on or something. You know she's just trying to shock and feels dead clever for doing it.

    I don't think 50 year olds should have to retire or be out of the public eye or whatever... but I think you're right, the constant re-invention doesn't really ring true. I'm just not sure what it is that gets me about her. Don't get me wrong - I don't hate her or anything. I don't even think of her most of the time! image It's just that seeing that stuff on tv made me think, oh, we've seen it all before, love...

    The other thing I don't quite understand is the furore over adopting the boy David, when Brangelina have adopted three and everyone thinks they're saints. I find those ethnic-babies-as-fashion-accessories a bit annoying (but then I'm probably sensitive about it as I was one! - an ethnic baby, not a fashion accessory! image )
  • MirjamukMirjamuk Posts: 190
    I genuinely think good on her! She has completely decided to go her own route, ignore any critics and do what she thinks is right. Now that is not saying I agree necessarily with the choices she makes (I mean, come on, I am in my twenties and I would not wear a leotard in public hihi) but she makes them all the same and quite boldly so.

    Personally, I love her music, but mainly the earlier stuff, for a night out. It would not be what I would put on tonight when I come home for work, but you cant beat having a drunken, girly dance to -holiday', -Vogue' or -Like a prayer' (you know you who you are LOL).

    I think she is trying to hard. But than in a way, I like that about her. I will finish like I started:

    Good on her!

  • futureMrsLeefutureMrsLee Posts: 1,872
    I must say I admire her longevity...

    Her drive

    her ambition

    her focus

    her sheer determination

    and actually some of her tracks have been part of my youth so fond memories also.

    What I don't like is over kill or over exposure.

    I'm afraid I think it must be quite addictive.

    We see so many "Super Stars" Popstars""Film Stars"

    Who just will never bow out gracefully or turn it in!

    What a shame, it does seem rather desperate.

    I'm afraid the lovely Kylie is heading the same way, but at least she has ceased wearing the hotpants.

    To grow old gracefully is no bad thing.

    Hold your head high and leave at the top of your game.

    Be remembered at your best.

    The Rolling Stones are still at it.

    How sad.
  • mrsj36mrsj36 Posts: 2,340
    I am not actually sure she is trying to be sexy any more - I think she's still trying to shock. Muscles like those on a 50 year old, leotard wearing etc. After all, her fans are I think mainly women or gay. When I saw her the majority of the audience were gay including my friends who took me. They went to about 10 of her shows that year! They love how she's not afraid to do things, shock and reinvent herself - it keeps her interesting and gives us all something else to talk about. I actually think it's quite clever the way she does it.

    I love her (mainly early) songs and she was fantastic in concert. As a person I think she's quite unsettled and out to prove herself. Maybe she isn't happy - I'm not convinced a lot of celebs are. She's never been able to do anything without people following her or criticism. I do find some of her ethics keep changing which I'm not keen on (against fur, wearing fur - that type of thing).

    Mrs Lee - I think the Stones are fantastic - I love them! Again, much more interesting than the bands with no personalities who come through now. Their wrinkles are great - shows what interesting lives they've led and why not still go on and on and on - it's probably the only thing they really know and fans love them.
  • NaomeiNaomei Posts: 2,273
    Yes, MrsJuice - was wondering about the whole fur thing. Did you see that Gwyneth Paltrow is in an advert for Tods(?) where she's wearing fur? I thought she was married to a vegetarian, plus I thought she was friends with Stella McCartney! I found that a bit odd. Surely she doesn't need the money?
  • mrsj36mrsj36 Posts: 2,340
    Yes I saw that - she angered me too! I'm sure Chris would have something to say to her surely?! And yes she is meant to be friends with Stella, though she in turn is friends with a lot of fur wearing people so she's obviously not put her ethics in the way of friendships.
  • PikelettePikelette Posts: 1,096
    I'm "older" - still can't believe quite HOW or perhaps WHO added all those years onto my birth certificate - and while I never thought I'd give a fig about what I wore at whatever age, actually I do. Because no matter how well preserved, there's some stuff you can't hide and which just looks all the worse for being on display at 50.

    So while I'm quite pleased that Madge doesn't appear to be entirely held together with plastic surgery I'd still tell her that she's in terrific danger of resembling mutton dressed up as, er, mutton!
  • NaomeiNaomei Posts: 2,273
    Pikelet, I always thought you were young! image

    Btw I LOVE your avatar... it makes me think of scrummy breakfasts!

    I don't think anyone should feel that they need to hide away or anything when they get older. I think the thing with Madonna is that she always seems to be out to get attention and it seems a bit sad! I don't expect her to hide in a cupboard or anything but she always seems so in your face.

    That said I always found Kylie really irritating, but then she got sick and it seemed really mean to say anything bad about her! (J loves her spinning around video though, ha ha!) I suppose I find women who get famous for just being 'sexy' a bit annoying, but maybe I'm jealous or something?! I don't know. I think I just prefer people who are talented... but that's back to the whole looks vs talent debate! image
  • mrsj36mrsj36 Posts: 2,340
    Also NC- you're right it's all about tastes. Madonna and Kylie may not have the best voices ever but they got some good tunes and worked hard to be where they are. Other people are probably more talented but didn't have the guts and determination.

    Again - Kylie's got a huge gay following image
  • PikelettePikelette Posts: 1,096
    You are a darling, Naocat! If you could just help me look for those missing years, mind....

    I agree about the In Yer Face qualities of Madonna and think she's re-invented herself about as many times as Dr. Who and it is now showing! However, about the hiding stuff away when you get older the trick seems to me to be all about knowing the difference between the "Wow" and "Ewwwww" Factor and polishing up the right bits!
  • NaomeiNaomei Posts: 2,273
    Oh, I can think of people I know who are older but don't seem 'old'. However I do think 'mutton as lamb' is a bit sad. I mean, J is quite a bit older than I am but he's not a real oldie (pipe and slippers, ha ha!). Equally he's not a hoodie wearing 'down with the kids' type. I think there is probably a balance. The mum of one of my friends is in her 60s and she is just SO attractive. Yes she has a few wrinkles but she is vivacious and happy - and doesn't dress like a 16 year old, but nor does she dress as a granny! I think happy people usually look more attractive anyway. I mean look at Victoria Beckham - I don't think people warm to her because she always looks so bluddy miserable!

    My aunt is quite funny like that - she's soooo super-glam and sometimes I think she verges on muttony(!) but she's also really funny (I mean, I wouldn't wear a gangster suit and trilby at my age, and I'm 30-odd years younger than her!) so I think she pulls it off. I think the thing is, nobody wants to see too much flesh, whatever age you are! But if you have a bit of fun with your clothes then I think people appreciate it, especially if it's part of your character.
  • CeleryukCeleryuk Posts: 3,640
    Also NC- you're right it's all about tastes. Madonna and Kylie may not have the best voices ever but they got some good tunes and worked hard to be where they are. Other people are probably more talented but didn't have the guts and determination.

    Again - Kylie's got a huge gay following image

    I am not too sure about that. I think there are talented people who work extremely hard and still don't succeed. I think there is much more competition nowadays with so much people in the music industry than there was before. The determination must be just a question of how far can you go to be famous? Kylie literally was forgotten until she wore her hotpants in a video. Before she did an album quite different and personal but it was a flop. I think they just use what's working and selling, milk the cow and try something else.

    It raises a question of what is more important as an artist, your integrity or being famous...
  • mrsj36mrsj36 Posts: 2,340
    Of course there are people who don't make it - it's what happens in life. Same with writing, art etc - where you are and who you know is worth a lot. BUT I do think Kylie and Madonna have listened to their fans and kept them interested. Other stars do the same old and people get fed up of it.

    And some people don't want the fame - they're happy to have the life they lead without all the money and fame. Those who strive for it have to deal with it and Madonna did that by keeping everyone interested.

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